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Stat Increases on Level-Up

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Poll: What kind of Stat Increases on Level-Up do you want to see in Unsung Story? (16 member(s) have cast votes)

What kind of Stat Increases on Level-Up do you want to see in Unsung Story?

  1. Player Choice (either alone or in combination with another option) (13 votes [81.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 81.25%

  2. Percentage Based (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Growth Based (1 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

  4. I have another idea! (Please Post!) (2 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

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#1 TacticalRPGFan

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 04:15 AM

One of the engaging parts of any RPG is character growth, both in story and gameplay. Gameplay-wise that typically involves characters getting stronger as the game goes on, and usually stat-increases when the character levels up is part of that. However, different RPGs have used different systems to manage these stat-increases. What kind of system do we want to see in Unsung Story?

 

Here are 3 common implementations:

  • Growth-Based Stat Increases - The most common implementation, different stats will increase (grow) at different rates depending on a number of factors like class. For instance, an Attacker might get +4 Strength but only +1 Mind, while a Mage might get +4 Mind but only +1 Strength. This makes stat-increases predictable, and the player can manipulate them if they can control the factors the growth rate is based on.
  • Percentage-Based Stat Increases - The implementation used by games like the Fire Emblem series, on each level-up stats have a percent chance of increasing. For example, an Attack might have a 75% chance to increase Strength, while a Mage might have only a 10% chance to increase strength. Typically in this implementation stats only go up by 1 per level up, but not necessarily. This makes stat increases highly variable, and characters might be great in one playthrough but terrible in the next. Since players usually aren't able to manipulate the percentages, they have to adapt to whatever the situation is on the current playthough - which can be an interesting challenge for players.
  • Player Choice - The player can directly choose which stats to increase. Either the player can directly choose a stat to increase, or players are given a number of points to spend and can use them to increase stats (or for other effects) which may have different costs. This is seen frequently in Pen and Paper RPGs and other more involved systems. This can also be combined with other options, allowing players to add addition stat increases as a bonus or otherwise involving player choice in the process.

I would like to see Player Choice used in combination with another system - I think Growth Based would likely be more familiar and more comfortable for most players. Making the player choice a bonus stat increase may make it feel like more of a reward for players. In order to streamline the process, I think it should be a straightforward choice instead of a point-based system. Finally, in order to mitigate min-maxing I think the increases should be greater for stats that are below the curve.

 

Here's an image to demonstrate the kind of thing I'm thinking:

dqzaoDY.png

 

What do you think? Do you prefer one of the commonly used systems, or do you have another idea?


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#2 Gesser

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 05:42 AM

This' an area that makes or breaks a lot of games... it's often game-breaking (e.g. Diablo II or TO:LUCT) or its superfluous (e.g. FFXIV).

 

I hope, I hope, I hope that the stats are such that there are multiple, viable statistical routes for each class.

 

For instance, War Mage could go something like two-handed style with a STR=MIND>DEX (for crit) build or a one-handed DEX=MIND>STR build.

 

Or even better, a more magic-focused build with fighter-lite properties: MIND>STR=DEX.

 

I would despise the scenario where you simply stack all your points into your primary & neglect the rest.

 

I'd also hate the scenario where it's automated & multi-classing is involved...

 

In Tactics Ogre, you'd level any character with Ninja (similar to Archer pre-leveling in FFT) & then convert them into a caster & have 100% hit-chance on all the ultimate spells in the game... it was gimmicky & broke the game. Not only that, it was no fun & you felt gimped if you weren't doing it.

 

I'd like Player Choice but I want it to be meaningful & there to be the option to respect out of combat.


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#3 Shyla

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 12:42 AM

This is a great topic discussion and I would love to see more of what you all would like to see for this as this information would be very useful for our game designers. Please keep this going and if you have questions, I will do my best to try to find the answers for you!


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#4 Nezrial

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 01:02 AM

Any of these are viable if done right. I personally prefer being able to have some degree of customization and thus prefer to allocate stats myself as I'm generally not 100% happy with selections auto-allocation makes

#5 Melodia

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:46 AM

I like how FFV does it. The class leveled up in is /irrelevant/. Stats are completely based on what class you are in general, what class you're in, and what ability you have equipped. Thus you can never 'ruin' a character by leveling it up as a mage class or whatever.

 

Though this is only for games where you can choose your class on the fly (which I believe US falls into, yes?) as opposed to 'pick a class and stuck to it/stick to a limited tree' of most RPGs.



#6 guilandgraf

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 11:42 AM

Here is my ideia:

 

Both Player Choice and Growth Based have their pros and cons. And I think that player choice exclusively might push back more casual players. And since this is a primarily mobile game, the casual community is an important part of the target audience. Growth based, though, is not as rewarding.

So, my proposition is:

 

Make Both.

 

Use growth based level up, then the player can choose a stat to tweak some extra points, tailoring that character to how he wants to play. That rewards the player with a choice to what he wants that character for, and does not increases the complexity so much that it could push back non-hardcore-min-max audience.

Hope it helps!



#7 TacticalRPGFan

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 08:54 PM

Great to see the different ideas here! Shyla, thanks for commenting - it looks like even some brief official acknowledgement encourages people to contribute. I hope we can see more of that from you in the future, Shyla!

 

Any of these are viable if done right. I personally prefer being able to have some degree of customization and thus prefer to allocate stats myself as I'm generally not 100% happy with selections auto-allocation makes

 

Use growth based level up, then the player can choose a stat to tweak some extra points, tailoring that character to how he wants to play. That rewards the player with a choice to what he wants that character for, and does not increases the complexity so much that it could push back non-hardcore-min-max audience.

Hope it helps!

 

I agree with both Nezrial and guilandgraf here. The example I posted was getting a set of stat increases, then being able to pick a bonus increase to one stat. I think that's the simplest way to include player choice while keeping the system streamlined and not interrupting gameplay flow too much, like a points-to-purchase-stats or other more complex system would. That's a balance between the degree of customization Nezrial mentioned and not alienating players with complexity like guilandgraf mentioned. Are their other ideas that balance both of those things well?

 

Though this is only for games where you can choose your class on the fly (which I believe US falls into, yes?) as opposed to 'pick a class and stuck to it/stick to a limited tree' of most RPGs.

 

How class changes are going to work in Unsung Story is a good question, Melodia! I don't think it's been revealed exactly how class changes are going to work yet. We know about 5 different Schools and 5 different class types, and also the idea that weapon choice is involved in determining class. This may be part of the game that's still under development. How would we want changing classes to work? Should you be able to change classes on the fly, even mid-battle, by equipping a different weapon? Or should there be more strategic choice involved?

 

Personally I would prefer more strategic planning for determining class composition before going into battles. For me one of the big draws to RPGs is characters developing over time, both in gameplay and story. Therefore, I think it's a good thing when players can affect that growth over time.



#8 Leviathan2552

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 01:16 AM

First let me state that I cannot wait for this game. I've put hours and hours into FFT. I've also played Tactics Ogre, FFTA 1 and 2. I know that living up to the names of those games is not easy, but I gotta be honest. Don't fix what isn't broken. I recommend keeping the Final Fantasy Tactics model and just improving upon it. 
    If a different system is going to be implemented I don't think that full player control would be good. After all we as players have no idea what we want. I don't doubt that a static growth plus a bit of control would be bad. 



#9 Leviathan2552

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 01:16 AM

First let me state that I cannot wait for this game. I've put hours and hours into FFT. I've also played Tactics Ogre, FFTA 1 and 2. I know that living up to the names of those games is not easy, but I gotta be honest. Don't fix what isn't broken. I recommend keeping the Final Fantasy Tactics model and just improving upon it. 
   If a different system is going to be implemented I don't think that full player control would be good. After all we as players have no idea what we want. I think that a static growth plus a bit of control would be bad. 
 Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga had a fun, but sometimes irritating level up mechanic. You level up get you + stats and on top of that you also get to pick a stat you want to increase and a roulette wheel drops down, lands on a number and adds that to whatever you decided to pick.
   Pillars of Eternity recently came out and it's stat system is interesting. Most games stick to the model that barbarians have to be dumb and wizards have to be smart. Each stat has a set effect no matter which class chooses to use it. 

 The only thing I really hope that DOES NOT happen is gear controlled characters. FFTA did this and I thought it was garbage. I don't like my level 50 super bad awesome knight using a rusty sword because he has to learn the "Whack" skill. So I now I have to fight 10 fights with an awful weapon because the skill is kinda useful. 
Along the same lines I don't think it's a good idea to have gear play much an effect in the way characters act. 
For example: In FFT I equip my knight with a crossbow, he can now shoot people with his Battle Skill and break gear from a few spaces away. Or if I want my summoner to use a gun to conserve mana(or maybe I don't think I can land a summon that would hit more than one person and I think that's wasteful) while still being useful from far away.
But instead now my knight poofs into a ranger/archer class (and with this poof does his armor also change?) and is no longer a tank like I wanted him to be(because you can also shoot the crossbow point blank and use a shield with it) 
My summoner would then turn into a flintlock wielding sniper(best class ever) and lose his magic? What if I wanted to use a spell next turn? Just because of the weapon I wanted him to use changes his class?

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of mid battle switching classes, that sounds amazing. In FFT each character had a secondary job type. I always wanted at least one more type. Do you remember that ability that almost no one used?
Equip Change? What if each character could carry an extra set of gear into combat that would match their other class? I don't think any character should run into battle being able to switch to EVERY class. I think that would take some of the specialization out of having a high magic character or high strength.
I feel it builds more strategy to go into a fight with a skill set, each unit has a specific role. If everyone can instantly become every class, what's the point of designating anyone to a specific growth?
Either way, don't dictate what my character does by the weapon in his hand. A priest can use axes, a knight can use a staff.


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#10 Leviathan2552

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 08:35 PM

Also an idea I just had was to be able to set growth. I want my knight to eventually be a war mage so you could set his highest growth as INT, so even as a knight he would be growing that stat as he leveled. Whose to say a knight can't study in his off time? Or a mage can't pump some iron? 
Instead of directly pushing stats up, picking primary, secondary, and tertiary growths.



#11 Melodia

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 05:30 AM

I'll reiterate my preference of stats being tied to jobs/classes. I for one much prefer to work with what I have, rather than having to deal with what I 'might' have in the furture. It's probably why I rarely play CRPGs, they just get so heavy into stat applicaton that it feels just way too easy to make a perminant mistake simply because you want to experiment. I know people like customization and I think the game Rainbow Moon does it pretty well -- you buy stat ups with money, and it liimits you on how much you can level up one stat without leveling up others (Dust: An Elysian Tale has a similar limiting system that has a simple  1 point to spend per level type deal).

So if you must do player choice, something like that would be better IMO.

 

For a good reason why making current class  while leveling having major influence being bad, one only needs to look at FFTA.



#12 RedPanda

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:03 PM

I prefer this method:

Growth-Based Stat Increases + Freebee points (maybe 1-5 depending on how the system is, what level you are, and how everything works out in the end)

 

Every class has a certain growth, but some people will have focuses which makes them specalize in certain ways kinda like some swordsman will focus on strength while other will focus in speed or some is both.

It is ok to cater a little into min-maxing crowd, just not give full freedom on it to where it gets outlandish (like a wizard having zero mind), but sometimes those min-max can be used for a more challanging play like all strength and no def builds just for fun challange runs which increases replay value.

 

But one can have both systems, one as a default and on the second replay it opens up the point system for the net of the Growth-Based Stat Increases + Freebee points but instead all of it as freebee points.
 



#13 Lt. Silverblade

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 03:55 PM

I'd like to see a combination of:

-Class natural progression. Say you get a standard point boni to some stats.

-Bonus points to apply. You get an X ammount of bonus points. Perhaps tied with a class related increase cost. Knights get cheaper STR and Mages get cheaper INT. So this doesn't make it impossible to tailor some of your characters. And might also encourage access to a different class or class-tree.

-I'd also like to see some measure of control over the growth of skills. Possibly tied to having certain stats on a minimum. For example leveling Fencing beyond certain point can't be done with a minimum DEX of X, STR of Y and INT of Z.

 

A random starting base stats would be nice too. Each gameplay will be unique.







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